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[00:00:00] Kathi Burns: Hi there. I'm board certified professional organizer Kathi Burns. I'm really glad you're here. This podcast is designed for busy entrepreneurs just like you, who wanna take better control of your business and move forward with less stress and more success. If this is your first time listening, then thanks for coming.

The Organized Energized Podcast is produced for your enjoyment and show notes are found at thepodcast.organizedandenergized.com. Come back often and feel free to add this podcast to your favorite RSS feed or iTunes. You can also follow me on Twitter at Organized Energy and Facebook. All links are in the show notes. Now, let's get into the show.

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Organizing Energized podcast. Today we're gonna talk about marketing. Yeah, we're gonna show you how to get more leads and sales from your website with the marketer's marketer, Peter Sandeen. He's called that because half his clients are other marketing experts. His clients come to him to find out what is exactly that motivates people to buy from them and to get clarity to what impacts their results the most. Peter's approach is based on a decade of conversion optimization, looking at what improves your website's results most consistently. And you're gonna learn a little bit about that today with Peter and I am psyched to get going. Hey, everybody needs to know how to market and how to convert and how to track optimization. So let's get going and talk to Peter. Hi everyone. I'm back and I'm with Peter Sandeen and we're gonna talk about marketing, messaging, all the stuff that we need to know as entrepreneurs. So welcome to the show, Peter. I'm so happy that you're here.

[00:01:44] Peter Sandeen: Thanks for having me.

[00:01:46] Kathi Burns: Yeah, absolutely. So you are the marketing, the marketers, marketer. You have a lot of clients that already know about marketing and you teach them how to go further down the road. What I'd like to start out with is to say for people to learn a little bit more about you and your background and how you became this marketing wizard.

[00:02:07] Peter Sandeen: Basically it started with me starting two different businesses, getting bored with both as soon as I figured out the marketing, that's really it. And like after the second one, my wife pointed out that you only talk about marketing. Why don't you do marketing ? So that's how it came about.

[00:02:23] Kathi Burns: Oh, that's very interesting. You got bored and what was your big aha moment about marketing?

I think the big change was two things. One was when she pointed out that's really all I talk about anyway, so I should be doing that. But I think the second one was when I found copywriting specifically I heard of, I'm Finnish and I had never lived in the States. I had never lived in a country that has a ton of spam mail. It's not a, I mean it is a thing here, but it's not at all the same thing. You get like pizza places, send you a menu, that sort of thing. We don't get properly copywritten sales letters. And I heard of this concept of someone can send a mail, direct mail message to someone and that person buys a $2,000 thing like this. This seemed like a magic trick to me. Like it completely seemed like a magic trick, and I needed to know how it works. So I got into copywriting and I think that was the big, like within marketing, that was the big thing that, that happened to me. That was very early on, fortunately. So I didn't spend too much time before I figured out that copywriting was the thing I wanted to understand first.

Oh, I love that. And I think that's good that you follow, your, of course wives are always brilliant, if you do what you talk about and what you have passionate about, that I feel for everyone listening out there, that if you have something that you keep talking about and that you're really passionate about, that's really what you should be doing. So I love that you followed that instinct. So let's talk a little bit about how can we improve our marketing message? That's the big deal, right? Is to make sure that we're drawing and attracting the people to us that we want to have as clients. So how do you begin with clients when you are working with them?

[00:04:08] Peter Sandeen: So how I start is I look at the target customer and I assume that many people who are listening have already done a lot of that, but there's a typical issue and that is that most target customer exercises and buyer personas and all these are really about how would we pick these people out of a crowd? So we're describing what makes them stand out to us, and that doesn't affect why they buy from us. Instead, how they view us is what makes a difference to their thinking. So instead of defining it based on how would we describe them, which is necessary when you're buying advertising space and such. Instead, I start by defining how do they view what we are offering. So that's where I start. Then there's basically two more key steps. One is looking at what actually motivates them to buy? And it can be surprisingly different from what they claim to be the case. So especially in b2b, it is very common that if you're talking to a middle manager or something and they are saying that the reason why we're buying is that it maximizes our profits and such. Yeah, it might be, but it might just as well be that they think they're gonna look good if they buy this thing . So what we're looking for is really what motivates people and what are the most significant motivators. Cuz if you are trying to overload people with 20 benefits, it is overloading. It's just confusing. It doesn't create this sense of oh, this is exactly what I want, rather, it sounds like, that's cool. And then the third part is understanding what makes you stand out. There's essentially two things there. First, you need to understand what you're compared to, so what do you like? What do people actually compare you to? And it's not just your competitors, but also how do your target customers see those alternatives? And only then you can start looking at what would make them see you as the best choice for them? And yeah that's essentially how I work, obviously I also then put it all together into something that's really easy to use, but that's the process.

[00:06:05] Kathi Burns: Yeah it's so funny, marketing, I come from a sales background and marketing to me was pretty, pretty different than sales. One thing that I knew in sales is that whatever their objection was, it really wasn't the objection. And I think in marketing, it's the same way. Why they're going to buy it's not really why they're going to buy, why they say they're going to buy. I think there has to be that attraction magnet. For sure between you, because there's a zillion people selling the same widget out there. Like why would they buy the widget from you?

[00:06:33] Peter Sandeen: Yeah, and even if you buy, sell something that is unique, entirely unique, as long as they're solving a worthwhile problem or helping people with something, some meaningful goal, they almost certainly have other ways to go about solving it or getting it. It might not be nearly as good as your thing. But they probably, it's not usually the case that people are just sitting at home like, there is nothing in the world that could possibly help me with this. Like that is very rarely the case. So even if you sell something entirely unique, you are certainly sting still competing against lots of other things, just not direct competitors.

[00:07:12] Kathi Burns: Do you have any practices that you would recommend for the people out there? Say they think that they have their messaging down what would they do to see what's working? Are there soft checks or soft little marketing things they can do to figure it out before they really pop it onto the website? Cause we're gonna talk about website here in a minute.

[00:07:29] Peter Sandeen: Yes and no. So there are, but they're not the most simplistic things, usually. Something you can do is if you're talking to someone who should be an ideal customer, then give yourself two or maximum three seconds to say something that should make them go like just eyes widen and be like, oh, tell me more. If you can't do that, then you don't have your messaging down. Like you're not really there yet. There's, cuz that's really what you're trying to create. You're trying to create something where people have that instant sense of, oh, why haven't I found this before? Or at least. If this is what it seems like, then it is, why haven't I found this before? Like obviously no one's going to say, oh, I want to buy this in two seconds. That's not going to happen. But you should be able to create that sense of like hope of this is how good this sounds like it is. And another way to do it is try advertising. If you can't do it well, if you're not getting the attention of the right people, if they're not getting if they're not clicking, if they're not moving forward, then your messaging isn't good enough, it can be okay, but there's a big difference between getting it to the point where it's passable. As in if you talk with someone for half an hour, they might be like, oh yeah, that sounds cool, but that doesn't really work in marketing. Cuz you very rarely get people to listen to you for more than five seconds unless you create that instance sense of, oh, this looks really cool. So it's not a perfect test, but that's pretty much the test there is.

[00:09:01] Kathi Burns: And I know you can go down the advertising hole very quickly. I love the idea about you finding who you feel is your ideal market and then seeing if their eyes light up or looking for that magic word. Tell me more. Tell me more. What are you talking about?

[00:09:16] Peter Sandeen: Another one is how do you do that? That's like any similar question is fine, but basically you should get that instance like reaction of, oh, cool. Like you need to tell me more.

[00:09:28] Kathi Burns: Love it. Love it. Yeah. How would you do that? Okay. So now you've engaged them. What do you feel about, as far as engagement goes? Do you feel, how do you, what's the easiest way you feel to draw people into your marketing spiel and to get the, their engagement?

[00:09:44] Peter Sandeen: There's basically two different situations. So if you sell something that is difficult to understand typically if you have, let's say a software or some unique service that solves a problem that people know but don't necessarily value too much or don't understand the significance of it, it's a different situation than if you're in a highly competitive sitch like industry. So if it is unique, then the typical solution is to point out some outcome that they're not even expecting to be able to get. It's typically, I'm not saying always, but typically that's the easiest way to get them to instantly have that sense of cool, tell me more. But it needs to be something they understand as soon as you say it. So it can't be that you say that, Hey, you can get this amazing thing and is that amazing? I don't know. They do need to have that instant understanding of how valuable it would be. It has to be desirable even if they aren't actively seeking for it. Now if it is a competitive situation, so they are potentially like using a competitor or they are, have at least tried other options, then typically, again, not always, but typically the best option is to point out something that makes you different in a way they actually care about. So most differentiators are completely useless. They don't mean anything, or at least not enough for the target customer. So don't build marketing around it. You need to find a differentiator that makes them. Oh, that could work. Even though I think the other things don't work. So I'm generalizing a lot, but those are the most common two situations.

[00:11:18] Kathi Burns: Yeah, and I like the fact, everybody's like features, benefits, features, benefits. And I think thinking instead of benefit, thinking of outcome is more important than the benefit. Because it's okay, I can get this here, I can get this here, but oh, this outcome, this is the outcome that you're picturing for me, or you're drawing this outcome. I can see it in my life. I think it's much more lands a lot more solid when we're thinking about that kind of thing. And then the differentiator, obviously if you're in a highly competitive market, what makes it unique? Yeah, I love that. Absolutely.

[00:11:51] Peter Sandeen: But specifically in a way they understand and care about, cuz it is rare for people to see their own thing clearly enough to be able to articulate what makes them different in a way that other people care about. Cuz you as the person building your own software or building your own product or building your, like planning your service and delivering it, whatever it is you do. You can appreciate the hours or hundreds of hours you've put into doing something that makes it ever so much better than anything else. And you might be right. I'm not arguing about whether you are right or not. The customer is not always right. Their feelings are valid, but that's different. So it's like they, they do not typically understand what you do. Nearly as well as you do, like even if they're expert buyers, they probably still don't understand your exact thing nearly as well as you. If that's the case, then you probably haven't been doing it for very long, so like it is just not the case. So it's hard to often see what it is in your own case or for your own thing.

[00:12:53] Kathi Burns: Yeah, that's why you have a job.

[00:12:56] Peter Sandeen: That's why I have a job and that's especially why I have so many marketing experts as clients cuz they can do it for others. Not necessarily their expertise specifically, but like they can help others. It's really hard to do your own thing. See, it's from the perspective of the potential customer.

[00:13:10] Kathi Burns: Isn't that the truth? I had one of my clients tell me the other day, I sign off Kathi Burns, CPO, and she's like, I Googled CPO and there's so many things to CPO can be. You should spell out that it's Certified Professional Organizer, because I didn't know what that meant and you're an organizing wizard. You're like discounting yourself. I'm like, Oh, cuz I was trained I put CPO with the little registration mark, and I'm good to go. And people were like, I don't even know what that is. We get so close to our stuff, that we don't even know. We don't know what they don't know. And we don't know what we don't know. Cuz we don't know what they don't know. Whoo that's profound. That's funny. Okay, so we have our marketing message down. We've now differentiated ourselves and we've actually really described an outcome that everybody would want. So when we get ready to pop it onto our website, let's talk about that a little bit. The actual marketing of our message on our website, because I think that's where a lot of entrepreneurs and small business owners fall short. For sure. I see it all the time. So what's next, Peter?

[00:14:12] Peter Sandeen: This might not be what you expect, but I'd argue this is the very easy part. You can just say it in most cases, if you actually know what you need to say, then just tell it. It might be that you do it with words, you might do it with a video. You might do it with images, but just communicate. It doesn't matter how. It does matter, but it's a marginal difference. It's if you're talking about the right thing, then the, you can be most poetic or very inarticulate, and it makes a difference, but not that big of a difference. But if you're talking about the wrong thing, then you're just trying to compensate for talking about the wrong thing by saying it in a fancy way. And yes, you can improve results with better copywriting, even if you're talking about the wrong thing. But it's like you're trying to amplify non-existent results. It doesn't really work. So as far as actually putting it on the website, that's the easy part. Once you have the right message, the next thing really is understanding what you need to ask people to do. So what do you offer as the next step? That's the next sort of harder thing to do cuz it has to match with what your message is. So a very coarse example, if you, let's say my thing is that As an example that I make things very easy and practical. What if I would offer you a free 500 page, very theoretical book about something. Are you going to think that I must be really easy and practical? No, I'm also not going to attract people who want my easy, practical approach, I'm going to attract people who want the most analytical approach in the world. So having the next step, whatever it is, whether it's a free call or it's a newsletter sign up, or a P D F or a webinar or whatever it is, it has to be attractive for the people who are going to value exactly what makes you stand out. So I think finding that match is the part where people often fall short. And again, it's really hard to savor yourself, but when you have the messaging down, then at least you have a chance. And it's usually, I'm not gonna say easy and clear, but it's not that tricky when you know what makes you stand out.

And you just wonder okay, if my thing is that I'm really approachable, What could I offer that makes people see that I'm approachable? Maybe it's a weekly live session where people can pop in and just ask questions. If my think is that, that I'm super analytical, then okay, maybe I do write the 500 page analysis on something. If I'm the most experienced, then maybe I showcase that with. Amazing case study or maybe, like just think of what shows that, what will attract people who will appreciate what it is that makes me stand out? And again, when you have that, you just put it on your website. You don't need to worry about, do I have the best picture? Do I have the right font? Like relatively meaningless compared to having the right thing.

[00:17:04] Kathi Burns: It's so funny coming from a design background, I had a design agency and, we were so focused on beauty and then we would look at other websites that were converting like mad and they were dog ugly. And it was very sad because, I love beauty and balance and all that, and I don't think it really matters.

[00:17:23] Peter Sandeen: I enjoy beauty a lot. I'm not a good designer. I outsource that stuff, but I enjoy it a lot, but it really doesn't make much of a difference, and especially, it cannot compensate for the wrong messaging. If you're saying the wrong things, people will leave. No one's gonna look at the site and be like, oh, this doesn't look interesting at all, but boy, is it beautiful. I want to buy something. No, that's not how it works. And that's also I think, a large problem with a lot of the websites development agencies. They are primarily made up of designers and developers, so they're very good at making it pretty and making it fast. They're not usually messaging experts, they're not usually marketing experts in the whole, so it's.

[00:18:03] Kathi Burns: Quite interesting. Yeah, that was a big aha moment a couple decades ago. It's it's so sad. They don't care about. Now, obviously, if you have a great message. So for everybody listening out there, just focus on the message. Before you even go into the whole thing of like fonts and colors and branding and all that, it really doesn't matter is what Peter's saying here, and I, let's listen to that. I think that's so very true and because we get caught up in that, we get caught up in what are my colors, what's my brand, what's my logo going to look like?

[00:18:34] Peter Sandeen: As you pointed out, a terribly ugly websites convert very well. So like the way that I look at if a potential client contacts me and says Hey, I'm thinking of doing something about my website. I'm thinking of redesigning it. I usually immediately in the email say, you probably shouldn't be thinking of redesigning it, but rather changing the contents. I'm happy to take a look. I'll give you actual feedback on what, what needs to change and what doesn't. And most of the time I'm gonna say you don't need to touch the design, just change the content. I'm happy to sell you the design, but you shouldn't like it. That's not what you need. I'm gonna make more money with that. But I try to keep it as a small profit cuz I don't want to motivate myself into it, cuz that's not usually what you need. However, if it looks broken or if it looks contradictory to what you're about, then you need to fix it. So if you are, I don't know all about design, then yeah, it needs to look reasonably well designed if you're all about calmness and such, and then it's just a mess of a website where it's like the only feeling is anxiety. I don't know what to link, what to click. There's a million links like, yeah, that's a problem. But if it isn't broken, if it isn't contradictory, And there's very little to be gained from it. You need to be getting very good results before the multiplication of those results is going to be significant. Like until that point just focus on what you're actually asking people to do and what you're saying to them.

[00:20:02] Kathi Burns: Yeah, I love that. And we fall into that trap. I know that, I'm for simple systems, right? Simple systems for success. So women ate the muck that makes you stuck and all that. And then at one point I was giving out like a giant book. Why would I want someone to consume an entire book? My book, cause it's my book, it's not even about that. So I think we all get stuck in that. I think that's really good. I love the way that you gave the ideas and examples of, if you're simple, you're gonna do this. If you're that, you're gonna do this is very handy for everyone to know. So talk to me about a time in your business. So when did you launch your business? And tell me about a time that you went through a little bit of a downside and what happened with you?

[00:20:44] Peter Sandeen: So I got into this full-time in 2011, I think. I think the first like major downturn was actually Corona when it started. Like I had just this perfect storm of multiple client projects that had been agreed on ending, we're ending around March, like February, March, April of 2020. And I had already agreed on several new projects that were going to start in March, April, May. All those projects ended as agreed, none of the new ones started. All of those people just freaked out about the epidemic, which, I understand in those cases it was unreasonable given the businesses, but I understand that happened also. Some of my long-term clients freaked out entirely, even though it had nothing to do with their business and they decided to cut off marketing, which is usually a bad idea when there's a downturn, usually it's actually not the thing where you should cut down on. There are other things, but obviously I might be a little biased there, but typically businesses that cut down on marketing on downturn, Do much worse than those who don't. But yeah, it was like, it was a, it was a just a cluster fuck of a moment for me. Everything went wrong. In three months I went from making pretty good money to making. Very little money because I had always been in a situation where I had very stable clients. I had only a few at a time. I liked the fact that I don't have that much work. I can just spend it on with my wife or doing other things. So suddenly I had just almost nothing, almost no income.

I think that was the worst and what it took for me to get out of it was really starting to actually work on getting clients suddenly more and it, I had never built a system for myself that I can like suddenly fire up cuz it had been like very regular referrals. Very long-term clients, like almost everyone who hired me, wanted to stay with me for at least one and a half years, often more so it, it was super stable. I had never needed to do what I did for my clients in my own business. Yeah.

[00:22:46] Kathi Burns: Welcome to the real world, right? So then you went ahead and you did your own marketing for yourself, and did you call upon other experts or outside observers to help you with this, or did you go it alone? We can't see our muck usually for ourselves.

[00:23:03] Peter Sandeen: Yeah. Both in a way. So I did ask some colleagues about what I like, just ideas and all that, but then I basically, I did two things. I created a system for selling my coaching, which is, has been my primary thing ever, all, all along. And I also created an online course that was like I had been planning it for years, and then it was like, okay, maybe that would be a good time to actually do it. So it was like, I spent, I don't know how long some months, like really just making sure it's good, launched it, and then changed my business to some degree. Previously, I had very rarely had people promote me directly as a Hey, go check out this thing. It was much more oh, I'm talking with one person and Hey, you should talk with Peter. You have the problem he solves yeah. I basically, I changed my business, wanted more stability to it, so instead of just relying on the coaching, just relying on client projects I started to also have online courses and yeah, that, that was essentially the solution. Just make sure that I actually have systems in place for my own marketing instead of just relying on the, which has been great. For close to 10 years I had been just coasting along with referrals and that was great. Nothing wrong with it but the problem was that when suddenly things went so much worse in the world, then I couldn't rely on it anymore.

[00:24:21] Kathi Burns: Yeah, we all had a wake up call and we all had to shift a little bit. The pivot was the word of 2020 and 2021. Let's pivot. So I love that we all have to shift and move and you know what? I think the world is going to take advantage anyhow. Now you have an online course and that makes you more accessible to more people that couldn't use your expertise to begin with. So I think overall this whole experience has been good for all of us. We've all expanded and now we have more things we can offer to the broader mass. And I think that's super important cuz we all need marketing. Yes, we do. Let's see. Oh, speaking of systems, tell me about your favorite organizing system. What do you do that keeps you the most organized as you work throughout your business?

[00:25:07] Peter Sandeen: I have a conventional answer and then I have an unconventional answer. The conventional answer is I use the basic calendar that Mac comes with. So the basic Apple calendar. It's brilliant simplicity. I have everything I need to do there. Not a to-do list, but like every, like all the promotional stuff all the meetings, everything is there. And especially since it's a very international business, I like that it has time support, time zone support so I can schedule things in a client's schedule or their time zone, so I don't need to worry about daylight savings times and such. So yeah that's one thing that really helps people often struggle with calendaring stuff and just use the simplest possible tool. I think that's the like lesson in everything. I've tried to just simplify down from having multiple tools to having just one. For example, I use Notion for keeping track of everyone I talk with all my to-dos, all my projects, all my products, all my marketing, all my interests. Hobby is included. Everything is in one system, which makes it, and it's super simple. So it's, yeah.

[00:26:15] Kathi Burns: Oh, I'm not familiar with Notion. Is that an online app? That's something I haven't heard of yet.

[00:26:20] Peter Sandeen: Yeah, it's and it's free. It's paid only if you use the team. Like if multiple people have access to the things. So yeah, it's not the easiest to get started with, so I, calling it simple is a little iffy, I think. But yeah, once you get it working, it's, it can be very good. But basically like, why I like it is that it only has the things I need cuz I, I decided exactly what I need and I only put those things in. So it's as simple as it possibly can be. But then I think in the same way in the unconventional answer is that I am very ruthless with stopping doing things that don't make sense for me to do. So like I haven't logged into Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or any other similar sites in years, other than to do advertising. It's not, it hasn't been worthwhile for me to use social media as a marketing tool. That has changed very recently. In the last couple of weeks, I've started to think that I might do it cuz I have now an assistant who can help with actually, Publishing things and all that. But like, it's, it has not been something that would create the best return on my time investment. So I have simply not touched it. I think a lot of people are not willing to do that. They are thinking that they need to do a lot of different things to be able to get results, and that's usually not the case. You only need a few things that actually work together.

[00:27:42] Kathi Burns: Yeah, go deep instead of wide and it's less stressful anyhow, for sure. Much less stressful. So is there something that we have not talked about that you'd like to, that you'd like to have a chat around?

[00:27:54] Peter Sandeen: I don't know. I don't know. I knew that you were going to ask, or I assumed you might ask this question of what should I have asked that you didn't, and I don't really know, like I think this was pretty good. If there's something I wanna say about websites, like people really get stuck in the weeds and like first figure out the message, then figure out what you ask people to do. Then just write the pages. And if you really must then think about the design. Usually you don't need to, but if you really have to then do it at the end, only when you're actually putting the content in there, just do it then. Spend 20 bucks or a hundred bucks on a ready design, and then just maybe change the color. It's usually pretty easy in the ready designs, they just give you this select the color here. Okay, you do that. That's okay. That's acceptable. But if you do any more than that, then see it as a hobby. Don't see it as a necessity for your business. See it as admit to yourself that you just have fun tweaking the design. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with having fun with it, but don't think that it's necessary.

[00:28:54] Kathi Burns: Yeah, that's really good advice. I find myself doing that whenever I put together keynote presentations, I'll have so much fun just making them exactly how I want them and instead of focusing on the messaging. It's called busyness is what I consider it. We're not getting down to business. We're being busy with the fun stuff. I love to do design, I love to change my little slides and all that, but does it really make an impact? Probably not, because sometimes uglier and just a word is better.

[00:29:21] Peter Sandeen: Yeah. Yeah. And at least if you're trying to maximize your time, if you're not, if you don't have extra free time, like most people don't, then I think it is worthwhile to just recognize when you're doing something for the fun of it and when it is genuinely going to be useful, like efficient use of time. And it's tricky. I'm not saying it's easy to keep track of that for yourself, but, it's pretty useful, especially in a business.

[00:29:49] Kathi Burns: Yeah. Monitor yourself and say Don't go there.

[00:29:53] Peter Sandeen: It's like a lot of coaching clients, I end up telling them to stop doing seven different things they spend time on every week and it's that's not worth your time. That's not worth your time. Stop doing that. If you wanna do those, then do them on your own time. Don't say that you're busy with work if you're doing those because. No. It's much more common that I tell people to stop doing things than, Hey, you need to do more things. That, that, that's not usually the case.

[00:30:18] Kathi Burns: I agree. You can get so much more done with the less distractions, then you have I'm not on Facebook Messenger. I just have challenges around and I really don't wanna go there and I just have someone post on Facebook, but my friends are like didn't you see my Facebook post? I was in the hospital. Why didn't you just call me or text me or have someone call that you were in the hospital, I would've come to see you. It's it's crazy. So there's so much going on with social media right now and I always say choose your weapon, choose it wisely. You don't have to be on everything for sure. So I like your advice, Peter, and I love the fact that you're, and I don't go on it either. I have someone that, that posts my social for me, and although now, I'm starting to do more Facebook Lives, but it's very time consuming all the way around, and you have to watch where you're putting your energies. For sure. Okay. So this leads says too, do you have anything to offer the listeners that they might be able to benefit from something to let them get to know you a little bit more and delve more into the knowledge that you have in the marketing realm because you have so much to provide information wise, and you're such an expert. So what would you like to offer Peter?

So if someone's interested in actually taking a look at their own website making sure that it's working well, then I made a video where I basically go through what steps you actually need to go through. So it is essentially the messaging, what you need to offer and so on. But a bit more details on how do you actually do it, what are the key things you need to get right? What are the typical issues people run into? So if that sounds interesting, I set it up at sixfigurewebsite.com. So it is the number six figure website dot.

Love it. Love it. I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna go in right now and see what you have to say about my site. I think everybody out there should do it and I'll put the link in the show notes so that you guys can grab onto it. But it is six figure website.com. So with the six right. Yeah, definitely check the link, check it out. Bare minimum, just see what an expert has to say about your site because I'm sure that you haven't had this opportunity before to get this to get this information on a free basis. So thank you, Peter. That's really generous. I appreciate that.

[00:32:23] Peter Sandeen: Yeah, no problem.

[00:32:25] Kathi Burns: Yeah. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for being on. I know you had a little bit of a sore throat. I appreciate you showing up full tilt boogie. And until next week gang, we will see you back, same time, same bat channel. And thank you. Thanks again, Peter. I really appreciate it. The marketers marketer. Thank you.

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