Why You've Got To Check Out Today's Episode:
Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode:
“If I can leave everybody with something here when you think about your why. I just want you to realize that we're all here for a purpose. The only way to figure that out is to do your best at figuring out what it is you're supposed to be doing every single day."
Kathi Burns 0:04
Hi there, I'm board certified professional organizer Kathi Burns. I'm really glad you're here. This podcast is designed for busy entrepreneurs just like you who want to take better control of your business and move forward with less stress and more success. If this is your first time listening then thanks for coming. The Organized Energized podcast is produced for your enjoyment and show notes are found at ThePodcast@OrganizedandEnergized.com. Come back often and feel free to add this podcast to your favorite RSS feed or iTunes. You can also follow me on Twitter at organize energy and Facebook. All links are in the show notes. Now let's get into the show. My guest today is Ina Coveney. She's a business coach and the host of The Global Phenomenon Podcast. She helps up and coming online coaches monetize their tiny audience, the organic lead generation strategies before they invest time, and money and audience growth. Ina reach six figures in her business before ever cracking 1000 followers on any of her platforms, and her mission is to help coaches do the same. We're going to talk today about how to get clients with a tiny audience and how she's overcome some of the obstacles in her business to grow her business. So we'll see you there. So welcome to the show. Ina.
Ina Coveney 1:23
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Kathi.
Kathi Burns 1:27
Talk to me about your life before you were this podcast maven and giant Business Coach, what did you do prior to all that, tell me your backstory.
Ina Coveney 1:36
Before all of that I was working in corporate, I was a project manager for software projects. I was really, really good at it until I got screwed over for the last time at work. That's when I decided, Okay, I am done. I know my worth, I know that I can be doing so much better than this and peace out, it's time to start my own thing.
Kathi Burns 2:03
Wow. You stopped cold turkey and started being an entrepreneur right away?
Ina Coveney 2:07
Pretty much. I had had a side hustle for a while already when I had my first baby. I have two kids, I have a 10 year old and a four year old. 10 years ago, when I was on maternity leave, it was my first look at Wow, this is a time that I'm not going to be working. This is my opportunity to do something else. At the time, I was really trying to find what is it that I liked to do. I went down to my local diner and I asked them, can I make your website for free? And they said yes. I spent all that time just building the site. I published it on Facebook, I was very proud of it. It was a beautiful site. I started to get referrals for work. It was a few years of that of just having a few clients just making a few $100 a month, which was great for me because I felt you know, I have a full time job. It pays me great, I don't need the money. I'm just doing it to just keep my skills sharp, just just whatever I wasn't really into the whole enterpreneurship thing yet. I was just testing the waters to see what else was out there. When this thing happened at work, and it was a whole dramatic story involving lawyers and things. I just decided, you know what this was in my second maternity leave around and like, it's not worth it to me to come back to work here. Commute two hours a day, be away from my newborn baby, just to be here with you guys who clearly don't appreciate what you have. Once that happened, I talked to my husband, I told them, I'd really like to give my business a fair chance like a fair go. Not do freelancing anymore, but just do something else. At that point, I started to become more aware of digital course creation. I have a technical background. I'm like I can do this. I am great on video. I can do this. Let me just do this and see what happens. I was starry eyed. I really thought that this was going to be me going viral overnight, and I was gonna be making so much money that I was going to live like I was in a paid vacation all the time. Like that was the mentality going into it turns out business doesn't quite work that way. Right? But my husband was very supportive. He said okay, we looked at our finances it looks like you could be off work for a year before you would have to go back so sure let's give this a try. That's kind of how everything started from there. It's just been a process of evolution since day one it's never looked the same as it did the year before.
Kathi Burns 4:42
Well, I think you're cracking me up because you're like okay, so I have my first baby I went on maternity leave and and all that time I had all that extra time I'll just start a business.
Ina Coveney 4:53
I know that it's probably not a common thing, but I know that it this is a feeling that some moms have, especially if they've been in the workforce for a long time. When you're on maternity leave, yes, you're dealing with a baby. Every mom is different than every kid is different, right? For me, it got to the point, the first month, I was dealing with just staying awake. The second month, I was starting to see more people, people were coming to visit me, I was getting out there. So okay, getting more comfortable with it. But the third month of maternity leave, that's when I was like, Okay, I got it down, I got the groove. Now, I want to do something with my life. This is the first time in years that I've had this much time without full time work. So it was an opportunity. I've met so many other entrepreneurs who took that time in maternity leave to start their businesses, because they felt the same way. Like I said, it's not, not everybody's opinion. But some moms like me, we just found that a great opportunity to just focus on something else, which was great.
Kathi Burns 5:58
Anytime you ever found in an interrupt, I mean, I started my company 17 years ago, because I had a pattern interrupt of having time off for the first time ever in my life. So it gave me the space and clarity to launch a business. I'm with you on that. I just thought that's really cool that be a first time mom and launch and all that good stuff. You quit your job. You had already been sidelining and everything, talk to me about your first big client, how did that look what happened there?
Ina Coveney 6:28
First of all, you need to know that the first eight months of my business, I was so focused on creating an online course because I thought that was the way that I was just going to live this vacation forever life, right? I created an online course and I sold all of four copies of it. I never talked about it again, that was just not the way to do it. I was through talking to other people that they started to let me know, listen, you need to start helping real people. You need to stop thinking of this entrapreneur thing as, hey, I'm gonna make something and faceless people are going to buy it, and a million faceless people are going to buy it. Then you're going to leverage off of people you don't even know, that's a fallacy. That's not a thing. You got to go out there and help people. My very first client, my very first paying client, was because my coach had been telling me that I needed to post more on LinkedIn, because I was talking to corporate women. I kept telling her I can't, that's where my former bosses are, those are my former co workers are I can't. I decided to like, let go of that for a minute. I started posting on LinkedIn. Someone that I least suspected, somebody that I met 10 years before at a training, she comes up and she tells me I think you can help me with this. Can you help me? Oh, I mean, it was my first sales call. I didn't know what to do. Do you want to do it for this much? Okay, great. I go to my coach, because I had hired my own coach, so she's gonna pay me. Amazing, what is happening. It was someone who needed, who was starting this coaching journey, she knew more about the coaching industry than I did. But I knew more about online marketing then she did. It was one of those things where she knows what she wants to do and I just helped her by being a sounding board, just help her down the right path. I helped her put together her website and put everything else in place. It's one of those things that shows you that you can just come into this thinking this is going to be I'm going to set it up and it's going to be a get rich, quick scheme. At this point, my first client, she started prioritizing other things in her own family life. Her business did not advance from there. But it's something that I stay in touch with her and something that she keeps having in her mind. In the meantime, it's been four years, and my business has continued to thrive. It's one of the things that when you enter into this business, you gotta realize that things are not gonna happen fast, things are not going to happen overnight. That the only way to really succeed doing this is by not giving up is by being open to evolution, and just not giving up.
Kathi Burns 9:24
And continually just shifting and changing for what you want to do and the clients that you want and what they need. It's funny how you said that you were an expert in marketing, she was the expert in the coaching and but that's what happens a lot of times. What I find, my coaches know a lot more than me and or my clients know a lot more than me and I know a lot more than them. That's the whole marriage of a business relationship is to have people who can push you out of your boundarie I think, and so it was a really good first client for you.
Ina Coveney 9:58
Absolutely and I I completely agree. At this point, I work with coaches, I specialize in monetizing small audiences for coaches. I have coaches who are brilliant minds in what they do, I will never pretend to be an expert at what they do. But I'm an expert in business. I'm an expert in online marketing and expert on how to get clients. So that's what they come to me for. But if they came to me, and they told me, okay, what should be my exact message, and who is my ideal client. I'm gonna give you the tools so that you can find it so that you can figure it out, and I will help you get there. But I don't have all the answers in my head for every niche out there. I have the process I have, this is the way that you do it, and you find it. That's what my clients find now.
Kathi Burns 10:47
Yep. And processes are where it's at girlfriend. Don't we know.
Ina Coveney 10:51
I came from establishing processes in corporate, I'm telling you process is everything.
Kathi Burns 10:57
Project management, girl. There you go. If you had to do this all over again, what would you change? In your process?
Ina Coveney 11:06
I would not have started with creating an online course. I had a coach during those first six months that I was developing the course and she was telling me, Ina, I want you to start making money. I want you to start helping people. Can we get out there? No, I'm smarter than you. I'm smarter than everybody. I'm just gonna create an online course, that's really where the riches are, I'm just gonna do that. I was very, very stubborn in thinking that I had all the answers that I knew what to do. Guess what I fell flat on my face. That course that I wanted to sell, I had a launch, which might my coach was helping me with because she was an expert at launches. She helped me carve out the launch. I think I'm gonna go on paid for Facebook ads. And she's like, you don't need to do that right now. She said, I would be saving your money. No, again, I'm smarter than you and smarter than everybody. I hired a Facebook ads agency, by the way, is not that Facebook ads don't work. Its that Facebook relies on historical data to understand and to be able to predict the future data. So if I start on Facebook, maybe I spend a year, maybe boosting posts, testing audiences, testing messages, by the end of the year, Facebook will have enough information to say, Okay, I think we know of your audience, right and of this type of audience who is resonating with it, so we can show it to them. And we can do a really, really great campaign. But when you start fresh, and you pretend that I'm just going to throw money at the problem, that is just not how Facebook Ads work. I hired an entire agency, I dropped money into it. I got maybe three signups for my class. I thought this was going to work. I thought that was just it was like magic, you pay and they bring you leads. That's not how it works, especially not in your first year. So well, how would I change, I would have just gotten rid of that online course idea. I would have started helping people right away. Getting to know people in my network. And this is something that I preach now is talk to people who would be your ideal clients, identify them and get to know them better. Okay, what is it that you need? Can I help you with that? Let me help you with that. Here's my price. You start doing that if I had started doing that, in the first year, I would have saved myself. So many pivots, so many things, so many changes in my decisions, because I was so stubborn thinking that things had to be one single way. So no, I would start with getting clients right away, and getting to know my audience and understanding what is it that I could do for them?
Kathi Burns 14:04
Yeah, and I agree. I mean, you were drinking the digital marketing, Kool Aid baby, online course, and you'll be rich immediately. I ran Facebook ads, and it was fairly successful, but you do have to drop so much money into Facebook before they know what to where to send the people or to send them before. It's a long haulers game, in my opinion, which means it's a lot of money game. That's two good tips. Don't do a chorus for no apparent reason and don't do Facebook ads thinking that you're gonna like make a million because it's very, very rare unless you have millions to put into it, then you can do it. That's what I think you need a lot of money.
Ina Coveney 14:47
You need money and you need to have tested the message and the audiences already. So I'm not a Facebook ad expert. So please don't take this from me, but I'm going to tell you right now, I've been in business for four years, I'm finally at the point where I get a great message that people are resonating with, I get a great offer at a great price. I believe in this. It's time to start growing. I'm about to start dipping my toes into Facebook ads, but you bet is not going to be at the tune of 1000s of dollars overnight to hope that it works. I'm going to start testing the waters. I'm going to start training Facebook, checking audiences see where exactly my people are, what is giving me the best bang for my buck is going to be a process that is going to take me time and money. I'm just starting it now four years into the business. You do not start with Facebook ads.
Kathi Burns 15:38
Yeah, I totally agree. You'll kick butt this time because you'll now and it's the slow small game. I think that really helps. You're right as far as tweaking, tweaking this stuff. Okay, so tell me about a time when you felt stuck. You were just busy, overwhelmed and stressed out. What did you do to kind of have a come back from that?
Ina Coveney 16:04
It I don't even have to think about it. This happened when the pandemic hit. When the pandemic hit, I was in the middle of launching one of my programs. All of a sudden, both my kids lost their daycare, kids had to come back home. Not only that, not only were they going to be home all day, but also my husband didn't stop working, he couldn't go to the office because of the pandemic so he was at home. But he didn't have any bandwidth to help. Because people that he works with, they don't have kids. So guess what happened to people who don't have kids in the pandemic, they spent a lot more time at home, and they were a lot more productive. There's people in his team telling him, Oh, my God, there's all these new things we can do. He said, I gotta not work 12 hours a day, just because I'm not commuting. So he is in his dungeon in his office, while I'm watching the kids, plus, I need to continue homeschooling the kids. Plus, I am launching my program. I was on a freight train, and the freight train ran into a wall, like there was a wall and the freight train stop. And that's what happened. I started to lash out at my own kids, I started to like, really not understand why I was so angry. I was so angry during that time. I'm gonna tell you something that really, really worked. And it might not be for everybody. But it really, really helped us out was I got me and my son together, my son was nine years old or eight years old at the time. I got us both together in therapy, we would both over zoom, talk to someone who would talk to both of us at the same time where we could hash out our feelings and talk about them. And express what we didn't like about the way mommy said this or the way that Gregory did that or, and that really brought peace back. It took some time, but it brought peace back. With these really, really unexpected things that happen because we all have unexpected things happen in life. This was right, this is a warning, like way out there with a pandemic that nobody predicted. But when things like that happen, I think is really important to figure out where your priorities are. One thing that really helped me is just get us help. Right now just assume that everything is fine not sweep things under the rug is to actually get help to solve it. The second thing was to realize what my priorities here are to make sure that my kids are going to be well adjusted grownups. That they're going to be good people. And if at any point, I feel like my business is getting in the way of me mothering them in the way that I want to, then my business is going to have to take a backseat, it's just having a constant balance. Because guess what, even though my business doesn't have feelings, my business is not there crying because I'm not giving it attention. I am crying because I'm not giving it attention. Because my business is my thing. My business is what I decided to use to give myself a place in the world and give myself purpose in the world. So when I'm not focused on it, my insides scream. At the same time, so I have real kids and then I have this baby business. So it's just all a balancing act. I would just advise to anybody out there and I'm gonna say this in the in the most loving possible way. Use your partners. Just because we're the mom doesn't mean that we're meant to do everything. Use your partners. My husband was in a really really tough spot back then because he was working 12 hour days stuck in a dungeon in his office, which was not ideal for him either. Like we were all under stress. But when I started asking him for help, he started also asking for help. He started asking me for what he needed. You know what really worked during that time? We realized that we both really needed some space. And we started using weekends for that. We said, okay, every weekend, one day is yours, one day is mine, one day, you take care of the kids, and I can do anything. And the other day, it's all yours, you can sleep all day, if you want, nobody's gonna need anything from you. That helped for several months. It started to fill our buckets again, that we weren't overwhelmed anymore. Talk to your partner, communicate with your partner and help each other out. I'm gonna put that out there.
Kathi Burns 20:47
That's really good. A couple things that you said, that you hired a therapist. And what that did, I think is masters, higher masters. I talked about that in my book that the most masterful people will hire other people. That's how we come become masterful, and the fact that open up communication, because your son probably didn't even realize half the stuff. You probably didn't realize how he was feeling and so that really brought it all up in the open. I think that was really brilliant and talking about what you need. This has been a recurring theme, actually, when people talk about COVID, on on this podcast is actually talking about how you feel and what you need, because all of our needs changed dramatically during COVID. Everything changed. Without the discourse, you can only imagine what your husband was thinking, you could only imagine what your son was thinking your son probably had no idea about your business and how much it meant to you. I think that was really smart. That's good advice for anybody who's going through anything is, again, having a masterful and objective observer to kind of just get it going. Get it open and get it going conversation.
Ina Coveney 22:02
I think that open ommunication is the main goal here is ask for what you need. And then don't pretend that you're the only person with needs here, make sure that everybody else around you gets to voice them out too.
Kathi Burns 22:17
I love the one day off each week for for each person. What I do when I work with families, too, is I say, okay, it'll be mom and son night, one night, and the next week is Dad and son night. And so there's always one on one for individuals in the family. And I think that's important as well, that gets lost oftentimes. Well, good for you getting through COVID.
Ina Coveney 22:39
Well, we got through it. We got through it.
Kathi Burns 22:43
So what's the best piece of advice that anyone's ever given you? You think about?
Ina Coveney 22:52
The thing with good advice is that you don't listen to it the first time. Right? So it's something that once it finally hits you, you realize, well, if I had listened to it years ago, where would I be? And it is really to help people. I know, it sounds so trivial. It sounds so simple. But really, I came into my business with a mentality of, not of service, not of helping people, but of making me money, of getting me out of my uncomfortable situation at work of like, it was all about me and giving me money so that my life can be different. And it's been overtime, over the years of actually getting out there. Even while I was working with clients. I'm here thinking, Okay, I'm putting out a product and hopefully more people will buy it and then I'll make money. When it's if it finally hits you, that being of service that actually helping people is a thing I'm gonna tell you. Because I'm such a pragmatic person, I'm very direct. I'm very logical, rational, everything else would be like, just so right. I grew up with friends who were very motherly, and we all know that person that when they talk to you feel like they're like wrapping you in love. It's like them just like giving you advice, just by the way they talk to you. Like, there are people who are just like motherly, and I would look up to them because I'm like, I'm such a like, square thinker that I like. I don't think anybody has ever said that I'm motherly in my life. Because I am I'm so direct with everything. I'm gonna tell you that once I started to really switch my focus to actually caring about the outcome of my clients, and putting my feet in their shoes and saying, you know what, I'm not going to limit myself by what my offer was. For example, if I said, okay, I'm just gonna meet with you on a weekly basis for 12 weeks, and we're gonna crank this out, if one of my clients needed help, and they needed an extra session, I would get on the phone with them. Or if they needed, if they run out of time to do something, we'd get together on a Friday night for two hours, and we would crank it out. You know what, I'm not just going to stay here and stand behind my contract is no, no, no, wait, come here and let's do this together. I actually started hearing my client saying that they thought of me as a motherly person. And it almost makes me cry just thinking about it. They say, What did you mean? I'm still the same direct, rational person, but they started to see, it's not the way you talk is not saying honey and calling everybody sweetheart is caring, and people can feel it and people know it. That's what really started to make a shift in me, really feeling like I'm out there making an impact. Having a purpose is when people started telling me I feel like you actually care. I've always cared, right? There's actually doing it and being there for them. So if I have a piece of advice that I wish I had heard when the beginning is you need to be helping people.
Kathi Burns 26:18
Helping people. Yeah, good. Good. Good advice. So tell me about the other half that you use to stay organized. I was like talking about, you know, interesting organizing methods or tactics. Do you have anything that you love that you use to keep yourself on task and organized?
Ina Coveney 26:36
I'll tell you one thing. I came from a project management background. It's one of the things that they say that black smith uses wooden knives. I know that's directly translated from Spanish. There's an expression like that, like you don't. If you are a tradesman, you don't necessarily act that way at home, so I came from 15 years of project management. So when it became time to really do my business. I don't want to be strapped with these, with these constraints anymore, I want to be more free flowing. So one thing that helps me keep my scatterbrain organized because I don't want to project manage myself, because I will go crazy. I realized that there's a very limited number of things that I can do per day, especially with kids, especially with a pandemic, especially with everything is just saying short lists. If the thing that you need to do next is not on that list, then it's not gonna get done, then it wasn't that important anyway. Because what is the point of me having a list of 20 things that I'm never gonna get to? So every single day, I write myself a list like, okay, what are the things that I am going to aim for getting done today, anything that is not on this short list of three or five things, and then it's just not getting done. And most times, I only get to two of them. But I know that I did the right thing, that was the most important thing for me to do today. So everything else gets handled by, tools like Trello and asana and like, you know, things are there like your your to do list is never gonna go away. But if I'm gonna be productive, I gotta focus on one thing today.
Kathi Burns 28:23
Yeah, 123, you got it three to five is the most that we can tackle. I love that because at the end of the day, you will at least know what you did. Finish the day one, what did what happened? What did I do, I don't even know what I did. I was stuck in busyness all day long, which is a common phenomenon for entrepreneurs. So good for you for your list. It's awesome. Okay, so I know you have something free to offer the listeners. So what is it? What's the valuable free resource that we're going to put out there for everybody. So this comes.
Ina Coveney 28:55
So this comes straight from me teaching my people how to monetize small audiences, okay? Like getting to know your people getting to know your network, and really figuring out where your clients are all around you without having to pay money in Facebook ads, or grow your audience at all. And that is that you really have to level up your engagement. Now, we've been taught to believe that engagement is something that you wait for, right? I'm gonna post and then I just cross my arms and wait for engagement to roll in, in the form of comments or likes or shares. And then it's like when somebody asks you, how's your engagement? That's what you're looking at the comments, the likes and the shares. That's not how I view engagement. For me, engagement is something that I have control over. And that is, how many conversations am I starting per day? How many conversations I have with new people every single week? That is engagement. So what I did was like, okay, what can I do to help people level up their engagement in a way that feels natural because if you ask anybody, what do you what do you think you should be doing to get clients they're all going to tell you I should post more, or I should post more consistently, so everyone knows, I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna meet you halfway. So I created a list of 100 post ideas and this is for Instagram, but can be used to really in any platform. But 100 post ideas that puts you in the driver's seat of engagement that puts you in a proactive, state to start conversations, and anybody can go and get that for free at 100, post ideas.com. And that's the number 100 post ideas that come completely free guide and start talking to people.
Kathi Burns 30:38
Perfect. I love that everybody can use that for sure. So make sure you download that you that are listening. Okay, so is there anything that we should have talked about or anything I should have asked you that we haven't talked about yet?
Ina Coveney 30:52
I just wanted to hammer this point home and that is think of why you started the business. Your why may be to leave a better legacy for your kids. It may be to live the life you want. I had to really take a hard look at what my why was like, why am I not out there just getting a job? Why am I doing this? It's not like I'm making eight figures and taking my family on vacations. Why am I still doing this? I realized that it was because I didn't want to wake up and it'd be the time to retire from the company that hired me out of college. I had a huge fear that my life was on rails that somebody else was leading the charge, and somebody else was paying me and that's what it was going to be for the rest of my life. I was going to wake up one day wondering where my youth went, where my abilities to create a better life went where my adventurous soul went and I didn't want that. So if I can leave everybody with something here is when you think about your why I just want you to realize that we're all here for a purpose. And the only way to figure that out is to do your do your best at figuring out what it is you're supposed to be doing every single day. So I wake up every day thinking, what am I supposed to be doing now. So that 40 years down the line, I am not regretful so that I feel like I really put myself out there that I live the best life that I could. And I did everything that I wanted to do without reservation without caring about the risks. I just went and I did it. So I would like to encourage everybody who's listening to this is really thinking of their life. As like the game of life. What do you need to do to win the game of life in your terms, and for many people is different. Some for some people is making a million dollars. For some people, it means impacting tons of lives. For some people, it means saving as many endangered species as possible, right? What is the thing that you were put on earth to do and do everything you can so that every day you're working towards it, so that by the end of your life, you can look back without regret? I just wanted to put that out there for everybody.
Kathi Burns 33:13
No, I think that's brilliant. Finding the what I think I agree with you begins with the why. Why are you feeling this discomfort? Or why are you feeling this excitement? Or why are you feeling this way? And once you figure out your why you can figure out the what can I do to amplify that? What can I do to amplify that? Why that just makes me totally excited. Right? Yeah. So yeah, I love that. That's really good. Okay, it's I don't think gosh, I mean, I feel like actually, we could talk for a very long time.
Ina Coveney 33:50
Lots of things about this subject.
Kathi Burns 33:55
But everybody makes sure that they download the resource that you've so kindly offered, Ina. I think that's great. And oh, I know what I was gonna say is, let's talk about your podcast just a little bit, we might as well give some promotion to your podcast, right?
Ina Coveney 34:11
So if you're listening to this on a podcast, you can actually just go straight to your app and look up The Global Phenomenon. So this is a podcast is my love child. This is my baby. In that I interview, essentially who are people who are my heroes in the coaching world. I've had Pat Flynn, John Lee Dumas, Laura Bell great people who are huge in my industry and I get to ask them how they started and what were they like before they became the next global phenomenon? And then I also because I couldn't help myself, Elsa come in with solo episodes to teach about what is it that everybody should be doing to get their to become the next global phenomenon. So if you would like to check it out all of the interviews are amazing with incredible people who have they, they have surpassed every expectation that they had for their life. They tell you so I asked them really personal questions. And I really tried to surprise them with where we go in the interview. So it's not going to be an interview, like you've seen them in, you know, anywhere else. It's always going to be from a very, very personal lens, and the lessons that I teach, I always try to keep it to three things. I'm always just going to really narrow it down. It's not me, it's not me rambling on is me telling you three things about this topic that you need to know that you need to do. So to try to keep it really, really concise. So I invite everybody to come check it out the global phenomenon, podcast.
Kathi Burns 35:44
Yes. And while you're there, give it a good review and a good rating. And while you're on this one, give me a good review and rating as well. Please, I would love the love.
Ina Coveney 35:53
Tip your hosts.
Kathi Burns 35:57
Okay, thank you so much. And we'll see you next week. And we'll see you hopefully very soon in person.
Ina Coveney 36:02
Thank you very much, Kathi. This was fun.
Kathi Burns 36:05
Hey, thanks for listening to this podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you want to hear more, feel free to subscribe on the platform of your choice. Also, if you feel so inclined, I would truly appreciate a good rating from you, to me. Have a stellar day.